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Big 4: May lose automatic place in Eurovision final
Eurovision organisers have told MediaGuardian.co.uk that the issue of the Big 4's guaranteed place in the final will be one of a number to be discussed at a meeting of the European Broadcasting Union in Athens in two weeks' time.
A senior BBC, (UK broadcaster), insider said that it has an "open mind" about the controversial proposal, which, if implemented, could see the UK's aswell as France, Germany and Spain's Eurovision entries have to qualify and potentially fail to make the final for the first time in the event's history.
Russia's Dima Bilan won Saturday's contest in Belgrade, with the Ukraine coming second. The UK, Germany, France and Spain - the "big four" Eurovision countries who get an automatic place in the final because they contribute the most funding - all came in the bottom 10. The UK's entry, The X Factor finalist Andy Abraham's Even If, came joint last.
A growing feeling that the UK may never win Eurovision again has even led BBC commentator Sir Terry Wogan to say he may quit, claiming political bloc voting had got out of control. BBC1's ratings for this year's event were also down, with 7.1 million viewers on Saturday, compared with last year's 8.7 million.
The head of the Eurovision Song Contest, Svante Stockselius, told MediaGuardian.co.uk that potential changes would be discussed when the 42 participating countries meet next month. "Every year, we evaluate and debrief each contest. We will discuss these things there," Stockselius said. "We did a couple of big changes to this year's event, with the introduction of two semi-finals. We do not exclude that we will look into different changes for next year."
When asked if the poor performance of the "big four" countries could be down to other countries purposely voting against them, he replied: "It could be." Stockselius added: "I don't think it is jealousy, but it might be that people think: 'Why should we vote for them when they are automatically in the final? Lets vote for someone else'. It could be something like that."
Making the "big four" compete in the Eurovision semi-finals could lead to them cutting their funding, but Stockselius said the scale of sponsorship the contest now attracts meant it could afford to carry on without this money. "Of course we would have to look into funding, but we have such big sponsorship now it could manage," he said. "It would be a point of discussion."
The BBC's controller of entertainment commissioning, Elaine Bedell, told MediaGuardian.co.uk that the corporation was keen to talk to the EBU about potential changes. "We are going to sit down with the EBU pretty soon to see what the best way forward is," she said.
However, taking part in the semi-final could lead to a position where the UK misses out on a place in the final. This is a scenario the BBC would be keen to avoid when, due to its contract, it has to screen the three-hour final in peaktime on BBC1. However, Stockselius said: "That is a question 38 other broadcasters have to face."
BBC sources said the corporation had an "open mind" about the UK potentially losing its automatic place in the final. "We would have to think clearly about it, although it would be a bit odd giving over primetime without the UK in the final," one insider said. Stockselius added that taking part in the semi-finals might be a decision the "big four" broadcasters should take for themselves in order to bring greater interest to the contest. "Maybe it should be something for the broadcasters to consider," he added. "They would most probably get a better rating in the semi-final."
BBC insiders said that as well as potential changes to the contest's structure, questions also had to be asked about what acts the UK put forward in future. "The viewing figures [for this year's contest] were fantastic, but we need to think about the sorts of musical acts we put forward in the future and how we want to approach it," a BBC insider said. Stockselius said he did not agree with the argument that the "big four" would never win again, adding it was "fully natural and understandable" for countries to be disappointed when they did badly.
However, he added that it was "more the matter of the song and performance" and praised the Russian entry - which was produced by top US artist Timbaland – as a "worthy winner".
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Terry Wogan hit the nail on the head when he sais that 'this is no longer a music contest'.
What's the point of having a political vote after hearing 25 songs, when there is little relationship between songs and votes? It's turned ESC into a farce and this hurts me deeply.
EBU have some big decisions to make. Here's just two to ponder:
1) Return to juries - they are accountable.
2) Recognize that the 'east' / 'west' split will never be overcome and just go for two EScs a year. The Eastern (EESC) and Western (WESC). In this way, no excellent songs missing out due to dodgy semi-final voting - every country competes.
And just for fun, how does this sound: Every broadcaster picks a song but the details (title, singer etc.) a closely guarded secret. On the night the songs are listed as Song No.1, Song No.2 etc. As nobody knows which country is performing, they will have to vote on the quality of the entries. At the end, when all votes are in, the scoreborad reveals the countries behind each song. It would never happen of course, but a fun idea.
@Darko: Wonderful! Then we agree. All the exciting action can take place in the Eurovision, and all the boring countries out west can play alone with our dull songs and unpredictable voting. Everybody's happy.
hehe Darko I love your posts!! 
I also think the participating countries in such a contest would be there by invitation only, and I honestly don't think all the former Yugoslav republics would be invited.
Well if my (sufficiently extensive) experience is anything to go by, the invitation only VIP room is by definition the most boring place in a club.
Any truly relevant action takes place downstairs on the floor 
I just want to present you with some statistics from this years voting. Lots of people in here claim that neighbour voting is ruining the chances for the "western" countries, and that the "eastern" countries will only be voting for themselves. That is not exactly true - at least not in the case of Norway this year.
I'm from Norway, and we ended up number 5 this year, a very decent result I think.
As for "block voting": Yes, Norway did receive high points from the rest of scandinavia, a total of 44 p from Ice, Den, Swe and Fin. Norway got a total of 182p. If we subtract these 44 p Norway would end up on 138 (would have been on a shared number 8 with Turkey). Lets say our neighbours had given us the average amounts of points that we got from all the other 38 countries this year - 3,6 p. In that case Norway would have gotten 14 p (3,6 p x 4) from our neighbours, and ended up with a total of 152 p. That would have given us a 6th place. Still a very decent result I think (and with no "neighbour votes" . So - neighbours isn't everything. Must have been the song as well...
Where did we get the rest of our 182 p? From our "friends" in the west, or from the selvish and western hating "east"?
4 out of a total of 8 countries that didn't give any points to Norway this year are definitely western countries: Ger, Swi, Fra and Cyp... As there are fewer "western" that "eastern" countries in the ESC - actually the "east" were more prone to give points to Norway than the "west".
But then, who gave us those high marks except the other scandinavian countries?
Norway got a total of 41 p from the rest of the "west" - a total of 14 countries (Fra, Ger, Swi, Esp, Por, And, Ire, Eng, Bel, Ned, SaM, Gre, Cyp, Mal). This gives an average score of 2,9 p.
Norway got a total of 97 p from the "east" - a total of 24 countries (Rus, Ukr, Bel, Let, Lat, Est, Pol, Slo, Cze, Arm, Aze, Geo, Tur, Isr, Ser, Cro, Mon, Rom, Bul, Alb, Mac, Bos, Hun, Mol). This gives an average score of 4,0 p.
I will let this piece of statistics speak for itself.
I am not saying there isn't voting issues to discuss. But I am convinced that a western country still is fully able to win the ESC. I am not surprised Russia won - congratulations! Just because I myself didn't vote for Russia this year I have no problems seeing why people did! Just like I didn't vote for Lordi - I have no problems seing why people did!
Enough said...
Well said Keith, but do these countries actually understand the concept of fair play? I think not, rather they vote using very basic and primitive intuition.
@Thanos, no problem, my friend. No hard feelings! 
I sometimes use bold language, and if I do, I must be prepared to get some reactions.
@Jonny and Darko, yes an alternative contest may well be possible, but not administered by the EBU. I also think the participating countries in such a contest would be there by invitation only, and I honestly don't think all the former Yugoslav republics would be invited. The myriad little countries in this region and their love for one another is part of the problem in the current contest.
@Rita, you say "the East does everything possible to seduce the West." From this side, it seems like the East is trying everything possible to impress the East while totally ignoring the West. If they really wanted to impress us, how about showing us that they actually like us by voting for some of our songs? Playing fair will give you indefinitely more goodwill than a dirty victory ever will.
Lets just ditch Eastern Europe, they can become part of Asia instead, that will get rid of lots of the crappy countries that vote for each other...
Keith:
Yeah, it will probably never happen 
Although your idea of a sister contest could become reality if this current trend of voting continues and no effort is made to stop it, which could well happen
Ivan .:
Yeah, sounds great Although I think if that was the format, then in the final, all juries should be used, to guarantee fairness
Bad idea taking the gurantee of the Big 4 for the final before they sort out the rubbish they send to the contest. They will have no chance of making the final, interest will fall even more by the viewers of these countries and they will automatically withdraw due to that. We need every one in the competition. The semis worked just fine this year and block voting was minimised, although not perfect. We need a percentage of jury voting inot the results for the final now. That should balance things. There is no need to have a jury per country. There can be a central EBU jury. But don't forget but any jury is still comprised of humans with personal likes and dislikes that will always inluence its final decision. It's not a panacea
West doesn't try to seduce the East.
Oh but they will, next year. Half of all western entries will sound exactly like Norway. But who knows what the next year's craze will be
Also the East/West divide by countries as suggested below wouldn't work for at least five of the six ex-Yugoslav republics, themselves very much a part of the "old" Eurovision world, having participated more or less regularly since the 60's. Croatia would be the most damaged of them all, having competed for Yugoslavia the most.
I think the difference between East and West is how they view Eurovision.
For the West this contest is pretty much a usual TV entertainment. And it has no business value. How many western stars were recently discovered via ESC?
For the East the contest is an opportunity to promote the best of their music scene. And the locals artists are just fighting to represent their country in this contest.
The efforts both sides put into the contest is not the same.
West doesn't try to seduce the East.
While the East does everything possible to seduce the West.
@ Keith Timmons
Sorry pal...sometimes I take things too personally...
I like your idea, Jonny. But an East/West division under the auspices of the EBU is a utopian idea. It is far too politically incorrect and will never happen. But the traditional countries could easily withdraw and start their own contest, making a new "European Song Contest" the sister of the "Eurovision Song Contest" in the same way that "Miss Universe" is now the sister of "Miss World" (I've never been able to tell which is which). Perhaps we will see the evolution of a parallel song contest, something like an international version of Melodifestivalen or a reinvention of the Melodi Grand Prix as it once was.
But what's scaring me the most is that the West seems to be thinking "Us vs Them" and the East seems to be thinking "Me! Me! Me!" We're not on the same page at all.
almost perfect, Jonny
@ ivan
won't work because the eastern 12 will block vote for each other as usual, and the eastern diaspora in w.europe will hijack the western votes and we'll still see Ger/Fra/UK/Belg/Neth giving 12 to Turkey, Irl giving 12 to Poland/Lithuania, Spain giving 12 to Romania etc etc. So theres no change just less countries voting in the final.
back to the drawing board...........!!
@ Jonny K
Even I am not a big fan of eurovision, I have a better idea.
1st semi-final - western countries (defined by the UN) with big 4
2nd semi-final - eastern countries (defined by UN)
from both semi-finals to pick up 12 countries,so we have 24 in the final - 12 western and 12 eastern and everybody will be happy.
And about voting: countries who participate in the final have their right to vote (by televoting). Big 4 (even they don't participate in the final) have right to vote (only juries,not televoting)
Seems good?
Big Four out of the final? Great news, as long as they don't replace them with Russia, Ukraine, Moldova and Serbia (not that they need, anyway).
FROM THE MOMENT Svante "Stocks and Shares" came on board as executive, for me, the eurovision took a nose dive!
I think this man holds contempt for the contest really when he was at the beginning wanting the "big 4" in at any cost so they could pay for the whole thing and now that there appears to be loads of sponsorship he's not that bothered!
I'm in favour of having 2 semi's and a final but to be honest i guess the voting really has to be looked at with only finalists having a say in the outcome or if all non qualifiers voted and those nations collectively give ONE set of points 1-12 then that might be a way to resolve things?
I think that Svante has single handedly destroyed the eurovision
Frank Naef would be spinning in his grave if he were dead lol
Heres my solution:
There are 2 finals, one for "old countries" and one for "new countries".
The first final has the western european countries, plus Israel, Turkey, Greece and Cyprus (because they have been in the eurovision family for ages!)
The second final has eastern europe, minus the countries I have just mentioned in the first final.
______________________________ _________
Both of the finals can use the normal 1-8, 10 and 12 points. And its probably a good idea to use 50/50 televoting/juries in the eastern final.
Both of the finals can be held in different cities, a western city for final 1 (or another "old eurovision" country city), and an eastern city for final 2.
______________________________ _________
So then we have 2 winners chosen fairly.
But so that Mr Stockselius can still sit there like winnie the pooh, and call europe united. We will have a super-final to keep him happy. This is where the winner of the first final, and the second final go head to become the winner of the complete eurovision. And this winner is decided by a 20 person, musical expert jury.
And the super-final can be held in one of the two cities that hosted the finals.
______________________________ _________
Does anybody think that would work?
The problem is the west doesn't like the east because the east stole the contest and turned it inside out and got everybody angry!
The east doesn't like the west because, well, I dunno . . . . . . they just don't!
So both sides don't like each other and then there are countries like Hungary, Poland, Estonia who are stuck in the middle and don't really belong to either side, and don't get many votes!
So the solution . . . . . . . 2 contests! It's sad but true
Well said Keith. The EU will go the same way. Some of these countries think winning the contest is the first step to acceptance into the European family, while the rest of us are now putting ESC into the same credibility category as Miss World!! Mindsets are 60 years apart. Would it be politically correct to have an EU15-o-vision with a few old reliables thrown in (Turkey, Israel, Norway etc)? Now wouldn't that be fun!
Russia's win has as much honesty as their steroid pumped athletes winning the olympics. We ain't impressed!
The political implications of the vast differences between Western and Eastern people are indeed disturbing. Will we ever be able to function as a united entity? It certainly doesn't look that way now, does it? If we cannot respect the perfectly simple rules of Eurovision, how can we be expected to agree on a common EU law? I fear that the lack of respect for the Eurovision Song Contest is symptomatic of a lack of respect for European rules and traditions altogether. Perhaps it is necessary to be more restrictive in the future. We have probably been far too naive.
Mark & Tim:
Exactly, whats the point in pretending that europe is united in eurovision, when its competley the opposite. The east-west gap grows every year, and it is a shame, but I think the only asnwer is two contests 
Johnny K, I totally agree.
Trouble is that idiot Stocklius doesn't bother to listen to anyone, he just sits there every year with a face like a doughnut or a pumpkin saying how wonderful everything is, ignoring all the voting.
How anyone can say that the UK song was no good is beyond me, it was a modern professionally performed song, where the Russian winning song was well performed, but like something from the 80s, but I guess they need to catch up musically.
Luckily I don't thing western Europe is so dependent on Russian gas....
Let's split the contest into 2, I don't know why everyone is so worried about there being 2 contests, lets not try to fool ourselves that east and west make up a united Europe.
@Johnny K
You've hit the nail on the head.
We're such a cynical bunch because it used to be so much fun. Ending the night on the skewed results just puts me off going next year. Now I can't see how the contest will ever leave eastern europe.
Viewing figures down, no Wogan & no chance of making the final. Pack up the rest of the sandwiches - the BBC is leaving.
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